In a new battle over religious freedom and LGBT rights in Arizona. Two Christian
artists say they've been ordered to create artwork for same-sex weddings and
face jail time if they publicly speak out about their decision not to do those
services. Those artists are here live to discuss the case next.
Two Christian artists in Arizona are being ordered to create artwork for
same-sex weddings and say they'll face jail time if they publicly speak about
their personal objections to lending their talents to same-sex ceremonies. The
Arizona Supreme Court has announced it will hear their case in January. The
artist joining me now. Breanna Koski and Joanna Duka, owners a Brush & Nib,
along with their lawyer from Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner. Thank
you all for being with us tonight. Thank you for having us. All right. Joanna and
Breanna. I don't know which one of you wants to take this, but I want to start
with asking you: have you been approached about a situation or by a couple that
you felt like you couldn't do the work for their wedding? And if not, why did you
decide to go ahead and challenge the law anyway? We decided to challenge this law
because every day that we are wanting to create art consistent with who we are is
a day that we are facing potential jail time and fines and that was a huge risk
and a risk that we could not take and we believe strongly in the right of artists
to create freely, so we knew we had to challenge this. Okay. And Kristen, you were
helping them with this. I want to read something from the attorney who's
representing Phoenix. This is at Phoenix ordinance. He says, "They want the
court system to give them a blank check to refuse service to any same-sex couple
that's requesting custom wedding products.
There's no principled way to distinguish between discrimination on the basis of
sexual orientation versus discrimination on other bases such as race or even
religion." Well, where do I start, Shannon? I think, first of all, what needs to be
pointed out is that Breanna and Joanna make their decisions on what art to
create based on what the message is, not the person and who the person is. That's
a critical distinction. And in terms of comparing this to racism or anything
else, that's a bankrupt analogy. It's designed to shut down the debate and
thankfully the Supreme Court has recognized that and rejected that
analogy in both Obergefell, the same-sex marriage decision, and in Masterpiece
Cakeshop. The case that you all had just a... that was decided just this
past summer... months ago. All right. Breanna and Joanna. Let me ask you. The judge
has said essentially there is this part of the law that says you cannot make a
statement saying that you won't serve same-sex couples. In the appellate court
ruling in Arizona, the judge said this, "[P]osting language on a website telling
potential customers that a business will discriminate based on sexual orientation
is part of the act of sexual orientation discrimination itself... this act is not
protected by the First Amendment." He went on to say, "Although Appellants are
prohibited from posting discriminatory statements about their intent to refuse
services for same-sex weddings, they may post a statement endorsing their belief
that marriage is between a man and a woman..." So you can't talk about not
serving people but he does say you can talk about your belief in traditional
marriage versus same-sex marriages. Does that solve the problem for you? No, it does not.
First of all, let me say we serve all people, so I want to say that to begin
with. But that does not solve the problem. We are grateful that the Court
recognized that Phoenix was wrong to pass a law saying that we cannot express
our beliefs about marriage but they need to do more and were anxious for the
Arizona Court to rule and stand up for the rights of artists to speak and
create freely through their work. And Kristen, obviously you argued this case
at the Supreme Court, the cake baker's case, and Justice Kagan asked questions
about where do you draw the line: hairstylist, florists, cake bakers. Where
do you say that somebody has an artistic talent that they can't be forced to
serve someone? Well, if the First Amendment protects anything, it has to
protect the author's pen and the painters brush and that's exactly what's
at issue here with Breanna and Joanna. Phoenix's position is so extreme, Shannon,
that they're saying you can force someone to write a message that violates
their convictions. That's the heart of the First Amendment that they're
violating. Okay. Kristen, Breanna and Joanna, we're gonna keep up on your case.
January 22nd is the date. Keep us up to date. We know that the world will be
watching and, potentially, we'll see you at the Supreme Court as well. Thank you all.
Thank you.
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